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贾平：全球基金的存在就是建立起各种伙伴关系
2010年09月14日17:19 作者：王月 来源：和讯独家
和讯消息 在第四届夏季达沃斯论坛上,中国全球基金观察项目首席执行官贾平接受和讯网独家访问时表示,全球基金的存在就是一个伙伴关系,建立起各种各样的伙伴关系,用中国话讲就是“全民动员”,这是50、60年来一直这么宣传的,而赤脚医生其实就带有全民动员的观念在里面。
和讯网:各位和讯网友大家好!我们是在天津达沃斯现场为您播报,我们今天很荣幸地邀请到中国全球基金观察项目首席执行官贾平先生,贾总您好!
贾平:你好!
和讯网:贾总一直从事一个项目研究,是中国企业基金观察项目,他们是07年11月在北京成立的,这是一家什么样的机构？请您给大家介绍一下。
贾平:全球基金是总部设在日内瓦的一家比较庞大的金融管理机构,它的目的主要是从全球,尤其是G8,全球最富的8个国家,也包括“金砖四国”和其它一些民间组织和企业去筹资。筹了资以后分配给公共卫生领域,它的全名叫“抗击艾滋病、结核和痢疾的全球基金”,它主要是针对公共卫生领域这三种疾病。其更重要的目的是针对撒哈拉以南的非洲,抗击撒哈拉以南非洲严重的公共卫生的挑战。
我们这家机构是设在北京的一个独立的观察第三方,我们对于全球基金的政策进行研究,同时对于全球基金的中国项目进行一种监管,我们是独立的,非营利性的研究性机构和监管性的组织。
和讯网:前段时间大家比较关注的一个问题,就是周大使在美国的《外交政策》杂志发表一篇文章叫“吸金十亿,中国对外援助的胃口”,这里边有些观点我们不是很认同,您觉得他这个观点哪些方面有问题？您的观点是什么？
贾平:这是在艾滋病领域,涉及到全球基金的共同政策,甚至跨越了全球基金之外,涉及到富国们,就是8个富国,主要是西方国家,他们在金融危机以后,如何在公共卫生领域的投资,在全球范围内责任分担的问题。杰克·周大使是克林顿政府时期美国国家班子里的艾滋病大使,应该是级别相当高的官员,因为他负责美国全球对外艾滋病政策。在这篇文章里,他在权威的《外交政策》杂志上,有两个观点:
第一个观点,中国全球基金过去5—7年来筹到了10亿或者更多的资金,对于全球基金反过来的捐助又比较少,1600万美金,他认为中国赚了。他把它归咎为中国政府不愿意捐款,但他又提出一个新的观点,他说你从全球基金拿了这么多的钱,这个盘子是固定的,就这么多钱。相当于你拿了这些钱以后,撒哈拉以南的非洲国家、拉丁美洲这些穷国的钱就会减少,公共卫生领域的他们压力就会加大,因为中国现在是比较有钱的。他提出这么一个观点。
这个观点在西方世界里,在全球基金总部日内瓦,在世界卫生组织UN系统,甚至政界产生相当巨大的影响,基本上众口一词地认为中国政府在道义上有问题,目前是这么一种观点。
和讯网:这可能也是引起相关社会对中国的误解。
贾平:我想这个误解一直都存在,比如公共卫生领域环境保护领域,全球气候变化,汇率问题,人权、艾滋是高度跟人权结合在一起的,还有其它的一些,像军事问题,黄海问题,外交等,这些都纠合在一起,只是双方的博弈而已。杰克·周大使的这篇文章表明了美国微首的西方在金融危机以后力量确实受到了削弱。在这种情况之下,他们确实也希望中国承担起更多的份额。当然,也有一些鹰派的人物趁机说,其实是有点污名化的味道在里面。
和讯网:您对这个观点的看法是怎样的？
贾平:我回了一篇文章,我和尼克松中心中国部的主任朱·汤姆森合写了一篇文章,同样在两周以后,在《外交政策》杂志上写了一篇文章,我们共同的观点认为,周大使的观点是具有误导性的。误导的核心是在于,我们认为资金的分配并不是非此即彼的零合游戏,中国拿多了资金,撒哈拉以南就没有钱了,我认为这不是很准确,因为它带有很大的误导性。
第二,我们认为,中国在未来应该利用这样的机会承担起更多资金配比的义务,全球基金在日内瓦政治当中占有相当重要的地位,它与UN、WHO是平级的机构,是庞大的组织,在过去这么多年间,他可以分配全球130多个国家超过100多亿美金,而且还在不断分配,每年分配20多亿,它才成立七年,全球三分之二的公共卫生领域与艾滋、结核与痢疾资金都掌握在这个机构的手里,它有庞大的政治和经济影响力。我们应该利用这样一个机会,承担起大国道义上的责任,适当地分配一些资金。
他们下个月在纽约召开的这个会议,叫“全球基金的募资会议”,他们要求中国政府要承担起4亿美金/年的责任,我想多了一点,因为这个计算方式有些问题,有不同的计算方式,我们觉得在1—2亿美金比较合适。
和讯网:因为中国的国情决定,因为中国人比较多,虽然总体经济水平有所提高,但人均还没有达到那样的水平。
贾平:是的,9月11日世界银行佐立克说,中国正在向中等收入国家挺进,过去三十年的改革开放显然是有成绩的,温家宝总理昨天也说了,我们确实是有成绩的,经济增长达到了11%以上,反过来讲中国仍然有庞大的贫困人口,依然有着广袤的内地严重公共卫生挑战,这是不可企及的,在一定的时间段里。同时民间社会的崛起,就是能够提供有质量的公共为服务的非政府组织现在还很少,它需要一个长时间的培育过程。
而中国在这方面的立法又是相对滞后的,观念还没有完全打开,尤其在一些地方上,他需要国际上继续的支持,因为全球基金的资金进来有一个相当重要的指标,就是它20%—30%的资金是要下行到社区去的,不仅要给这个社区去治病、买药,同时也强化这个社区自己的执行能力,尤其是提供服务的能力,也就是说他支持你这个社会组织能够起来。
应该讲,它填补了中国政府在这方面治理能力的一个空白或缺陷,这应该是非常有好处的。如果骤减,在六年里它撤出中国,那么我认为对中国的民间社会是一个巨大的打击。所以,在我们的文章里辩论说,中国利用这样的机会学会了很多国际的术语和许多新鲜的观念,比如治理、透明度,这个以前中国很少有人讲。
现在恰恰有一个机会,让最边缘化的人群,比如艾滋感染者、民间组织、新工作者和吸毒人群,他能够参与到这个决策里来,与政府官员进行对话,与国际官员进行交流,我认为这是很不容易的这个政策。全球基金的总裁自己也称,全球基金的存在就是一个伙伴关系,建立起各种各样的伙伴关系,用中国话讲就是“全民动员”,这是我们50、60年来一直这么宣传的,赤脚医生其实就带有全民动员的观念在里面。
同时也有公共卫生民主,它的治理是民主化的,民主意味着更多倾听不同人群的声音,从而做出良好的决策,并不是敌对或者肤色等。它往往意味着推进更好的治理,是一个很严肃的议题,并不是一个花哨的民主名词。
和讯网:您刚才谈到,中国政府在接受十亿美金的资金过程当中,如果加强监管的话,会使这个资金得到有效的使用。您认为这么多年,这些资金在中国做了哪些方面的事情？中国的受益主要在哪儿？
贾平:2003、2004年,中国第一次得到全球基金,尤其在艾滋项目上,2003年的时候中国得到了大约6000多万美金,就是第三轮全球基金,主要以河南为中心,7个省卖血输血感染爱滋病,第四轮全球基金大概有将近9000万美金,之后五轮、六轮中国都拿到了资金,包括最近的滚动项目中国都拿到了将近5个亿美金,它对于中国有效地抗击艾滋病,对于中国政府有效地转变观念,重新整顿和建立起,至少在这个领域里公共卫生的防御体系,应该起到巨大的和不可忽略的作用,因为它背后有政治博弈。中国政府领导们对艾滋这个公共卫生的态度在世界范围内都受到了好评,走的是很前卫的,这点是很不容易的,应该讲全球基金是有贡献的。
当然,在地方上,它存在着一些问题,大国总会存在一些问题,比如它总会存在一些资金不透明的,或者存在一些不利用不善的,这和我们公共参与体制不健全有关系,也和我们过去一直以来官方治理结构不透明有关系,它需要一个过程。
正是因为这样一个过程,正是这样一个基金进入中国,提出了很多要求和指南,给我们提供了一个机会,提升我们的能力,我觉得这是非常好的。它不仅在公共卫生上,在疾病控制上减轻了我们的负担,在另一方面治理能力的提高和人才的培养上,非政府组织和民间社会的崛起上,它也起到了非常巨大的贡献。我认为这就是非常好的一件事情。
和讯网:由于时间关系,我们今天的访谈到此结束,感谢各位网友的关注,也感谢贾平先生的到来!再见!
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Jia Ping: The Global Fund is to establish the existence of a variety of partnerships
At 5:19 p.m. on the September 14, 2010 of: Wang Source: Reuters and exclusive
And hearing news of the fourth Summer Davos Forum, the Global Fund Observer Project of China Jia Ping, CEO of telecommunications network to receive and an exclusive interview that the existence of the Global Fund is a partnership, set up a wide range of partners relationship with China is the words of the "National Mobilization", which is 50,60 years of such propaganda, and barefoot doctors in fact on the concept of mobilization with all the people inside.
And information network: you and hearing friends Hello, everybody! Davos in Tianjin, we broadcast live for you, we are honored to invite to observe the Global Fund project in China, CEO Mr. Jia Ping, JIA General Hello!
Jia Ping: Hello!
And information network: the total Jia has been engaged in a project of the Chinese Enterprise Fund Watch project, in November 2007 they set up in Beijing, this is a what kind of institutions? Please give us your brief.
Jia Ping: The Global Fund is based in Geneva, a relatively large monetary authority, its purpose is mainly to the world, especially the G8, the world's richest eight countries, including the "BRIC", and other civil organizations and enterprises to financing. After raising the funds allocated to public health, it's all called "Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and malaria Global Fund," which is mainly directed against the three diseases in public health. Its more important purpose is for sub-Saharan Africa, the fight against sub-Saharan Africa serious public health challenge.
Our institution is located in Beijing, an independent third party observation, we studied the Global Fund's policies, while the Global Fund's China projects a kind of regulation, we are independent, non-profit research institutions and regulatory organization.
And information network: A while ago a problem of concern to us is that week in the United States Ambassador, "Foreign Policy" magazine published an article called "golden billion suction, China's appetite for foreign aid," We are not here to side very much agree with some views , what do you think he have problems with this view? What is your view?
Jia Ping: This is the area of AIDS, related to the Global Fund's common policies, and even across the global funds, are related to the rich countries, Jiu Shi eight rich countries, the Western countries, they are in financial crisis, Ruhe in public health in the field of investment, in the global burden-sharing issue. Jack Zhou ambassador during the Clinton administration in the United States national team, Ambassador for AIDS, should be a high-level officials, because he was responsible for U.S. global AIDS policy overseas. In this article, his authority, "Foreign Policy" magazine, there are two views:
The first view, China over the past 5-7 years, the Global Fund to raise the 1 billion or more funds, contributions to the Global Fund in turn has less, 16 million dollars, he believes that China made a profit. He attributed it to the Chinese Government's unwillingness to contribute, but he also proposed a new point of view, he said you took so much from the Global Fund money, the plate is fixed, it so much. After you took the money equivalent of sub-Saharan African countries, Latin America, the money of these poor countries would be reduced, public health will increase their pressure, because China is now more wealthy. He made such a point of view.
This point in the Western world, the Global Fund headquarters in Geneva, the World Health Organization UN system, and even generate enormous political influence, is basically unanimous that the Chinese Government has a moral question, is such a view.
And telecommunications network: it may also cause misunderstanding on China-related community.
Jia Ping: I think this misunderstanding has been in existence, such as public health, environmental protection, global climate change, exchange rate issues, human rights, HIV is highly combined with human rights, there are some other, like military issues, the Yellow Sea issue and foreign affairs, which are gathered together, but the two sides of the game only. This article by Jack Ambassador Zhou that the United States the first micro-Western forces in the financial crisis is indeed undermined. In such circumstances, they do also hope that China will take more share. Of course, some hawks in the figures took the opportunity to say that there is some stigma taste inside.
And information network: the views of this point of view you like?
Jia Ping: I am back to an article I and the Nixon Center's director of China's Ministry of Zhu Thomson co-wrote an article, the same two weeks later, "Foreign Policy" magazine, wrote an article, our common view, week view of the Ambassador is misleading. The core is misleading because, we believe that the allocation of funds is not either-or zero-sum game, the Chinese get more funds, sub-Saharan no money, and I think that this is not very accurate, because it is with great misleading.
Secondly, we believe that, in the future should use this opportunity to take more money from the ratio of the obligations, the Global Fund in Geneva, which play important roles in politics, it is with the UN, WHO is at the same level of organization, is a huge organizations, for the past years, the he can be assigned more than 130 countries worldwide more than 100 billion dollars and growing distribution of annual allocation of more than 20 100 000 000, can it Chengli seven years, and global two-thirds of Gonggongweisheng Ling Yu AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria funds are held by the hands of this body, it has huge political and economic influence. We should use this opportunity to assume moral responsibility for a large country, the appropriate allocation of some funds.
They held in New York next month, this meeting is "Meeting the Global Fund and fund-raising", they asked the Chinese government to assume 400 million dollars / year, then I think a little more, because this calculation some of the problems, there different calculation methods, we feel more appropriate in the 1-2 billion dollars.
And News Network: Because of China's national conditions, as more Chinese people, although the overall economic level has increased, but per capita has not reached that level.
Jia Ping: Yes, the September 11 World Bank, Zoellick said that China is advancing to middle-income countries, over the past three decades of reform and opening up is obviously a result of Premier Wen Jiabao said yesterday, we have had success , economic growth reached 11%, and in turn, say China still has a large poor population, still has a vast mainland serious public health challenge, it is unattainable, at a certain time frame. At the same time the rise of civil society is able to provide quality services to the public as non-governmental organizations are also very small, it requires a long training process.
China's legislation in this area is lagging behind, the idea has not yet fully open, especially in some places, he needs continued international support, because the Global Fund came in a very important indicator, is it 20% -30% of the funds is to go down to the community, not only to give the community to medical treatment, medicines, and also to strengthen the implementation capacity of the communities themselves, particularly the ability to provide services, that he support your community organization to them.
It should be said, it filled the Chinese government in this regard governance capacity of a blank or defective, it should be very good. If you suddenly cut it out of China in the six years, then I think China's civil society is a huge blow. Therefore, the debate in our article that China has used this opportunity to learn a lot of international terminology and many fresh ideas, such as governance, transparency the previously few people spoke Chinese.
Now just happen to have an opportunity to the most marginalized groups, such as HIV-infected persons, civil society organizations, and drug abuse among the new workers, he Nenggou to participate in this decision-making in years, a dialogue with government officials, and international officials in exchange, I that this is not easy to this policy. Himself president of the Global Fund, said the existence of the Global Fund is a partnership, established various partnerships with Chinese words of one "National Mobilization", which is 50,60 years of such propaganda, barefoot In fact, with full mobilization of doctors on the concept of inside.
Also have public health of democracy, it is democratic governance, democracy means more to listen to different people's voices to make good decisions, not hostile, or skin color, etc.. It often means to promote better governance, is a very serious issue, not a fancy term democracy.
Reuters: You mentioned just now, the Chinese government to accept billions of dollars in funding process, if the strengthening supervision, then, will the funds are used effectively. You think so many years, these funds do in China what to do? China, where the main benefit?
Jia Ping: 2003,2004, China for the first time by the Global Fund, particularly in the AIDS project in 2003, when China was about 6,000 million U.S. dollars, is the third round of the Global Fund, mainly in Henan Province as the center, with 7 provinces Blood transfusions have contracted AIDS is probably the fourth round of the Global Fund to nearly 90 million dollars, followed by five, six Chinese have got the money, including recent projects in China were getting rolling nearly 5 billion U.S. dollars, it is effective against the Chinese AIDS, the Chinese government to effectively change their concepts, the newly revamped and set up, at least in this area of public health defense system, should play a huge role and can not be ignored, because the political game behind it. Chinese government leaders of this public health approach to HIV in the world have been well received, taking the very avant-garde, this is not easy, and should be said that the Global Fund is contributing.
Of course, at the local level, there are some problems which big countries will always have some problems, such as it always has some money opaque, or non-use of some poor, that our system is not sound public participation in a relationship, and also we have been there since the opaque relationship between the official governance structure, it needs a process.
It is precisely because such a process, is such a fund into China and put forward a number of requirements and guidelines, provides us with an opportunity to enhance our ability, I think this is very good. It is not only in public health, disease control in reducing our burden on the other hand, empowerment and 人才 governance training, the non-governmental organizations and civil society on the rise, it also played a very significant contribution. I think this is a very good thing.
And information networks: of time, we end this interview, thank you for the concern of friends, also thank Mr. Jia Ping's coming! Bye!
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